TL;DR - this guy is pessimistic on the idea of a Rock band middle class in 2026.
One thing I have been pondering recently is how every local scene is really a dozen or more scenes that rarely overlap with one another based on rough genre fit. A twee band isn't going to open for a black metal band for instance. Couple that with venue reputation and preference - a lot of venues have specific genre limitations.
This nets out to fracturing that makes community feel smaller and isolated. Your community is your friends and the bands you get to know at your rehearsal space.
Add to this that fans listening habits and preferences are just as fractured and hyper specific.
There isn't enough local money to support all of the options on the menu, not enough fans to keep every genre afloat, and not enough venues willing to take a flier on untested bands. Also, who wants to pay 20 bucks to see a bunch of bands you have no knowledge of?
In addition, hiring a DJ to play music or a cover or tribute band that people can dance to is cheaper and generally pulls in more paying customers.
Oh yeah, and being in a rock band is expensive. Gear is expensive, learning to play well enough to have something interesting to say takes years, all that time you're paying out rent and bringing in a fraction of what you're paying out.
There really isn't a solution to this problem. The pie is too small, it costs too much, and people's preferences are too diverse. Plus there is a lot of other dessert on the menu.
The path for musicians to financial stability is selection. For some reason, the people have chosen you and you took advantage of the opportunity and ran hard with it. You've won the music lottery.
This model contributes to inaction, or more precisely, far too little action. All of what Carré speaks about is on the money. I also think her instinct to feature established artists with up and comers provides opportunity and is smart and tested. I also think it has to be sub genre level focused to work. It's a tactic that is unlikely to scale unless a ton of established artists are willing to lend a hand to the unestablished bands.
To sum up all my blathering, I am pessimistic on the idea of a rock band middle class in 2026 or in the future. I love that you are both doing something to improve the lives of musicians and working to raise the boats within your reach and I applaud and thank you both. You are two bright lights in a dark sky.
Im with you. I don’t think that’s pessimistic, I think that’s realistic. I totally agree that the only way the Sick model of collaboration between established and emerging is IF enough established artists are willing to pay it forward. And I have doubts that many actually will. Soon, im going to talk more about the struggle I’ve already had with getting established artists on board. I find that it’s especially difficult with rock artists. Which Gabbie and I talked about in our live chat. I’ve written a lot about how the rock genre has only stood in its own way and is to blame for its own demise. That’s a big reason why I don’t want Sick to be limited to rock artists.
And yes, rock band touring is pretty delusional for indie artists. I toured for many years with a 4 piece band behind me and now I can only afford to tour as a solo artist using drum machines and tracks. A lot of older rock fans and rock music snobs turn their noses up at this. But it’s an example of having to adapt and evolve with the times. I’ll be damned if I’m another sad man sitting at the rainbow room on sunset blvd talking about how “back in the day” I used to tour with X, Y and Z. So what. It’s time to focus on what equates to onwards and upwards. How do we survive NOW instead of how we did things THEN.
Okay but counterpoint: new colossus is an annual music festival where people pay $150 to see 200 bands they have never listened to before and it's really popular!
I do think you have a lot of good points I just think there's probably some hope to be had as well
Another bright light in a dark sky. But, it is a one time event and I doubt most of those bands did more than pay their rehearsal space rent from their efforts. Even if you could string together 25 NCs a year like an NC tour for those 200 bands that those bands are making much of a living from it. The math on tours doesn't match any more. The math on merch doesn't math. The math on vinyl doesn't math.
What's super weird in Tacoma, WA is that music venues generally don't pay musicians unless they bring in 200 plus people enough to cover their gas to get to the venue. Chinese restaurants, pizzerias, and other venues you wouldn't expect music in are paying much better. I think the whole model of venues relying on entertainment to draw crouds to by drinks and pay at the door for the privilege is fully broken here. If you don't already have a model that makes money before the artist shows up, you're kinda screwed.
We're happy in my main band just earning enough every month to cover our rehearsal space. It's taken us 6 years to get there, we had to start playing 1/3 covers and had to get gear that could fit both physically and sonically into venues without stages to do it. New music doesn't pay unless you're selected IMO.
One thing that would be super cool would be if you could interview some of the bands you cover when you go to their shows. Just impromptu, quick interviews focused on their view of this stuff and also a get to know the band kind of thing. I know you don't have tons of time to pull this off, and the ask is huge, but I think your perspective and position are super interesting for collecting music scene health type stuff and putting your fans in touch with the bands we collectively love.
It's not just that I don't have time, which I don't, it's also that I'm genuinely horrible at interviewing. It's a totally separate skill I never developed. People are also completely uninterested in any interviews I've done in the past, no matter the format I've presented them. This talk isn't an interview per se, but it vaguely follows that format, and you can see how well this post is doing lol
I have a lot of ruminating to do on Subvert because the part when Carré said "so many platforms" hit me like a wall of bricks because I'm a Subvert member who hasn't actually used it because, yes, too many platforms - but as i mull this over i gotta say, i'm ma'amifesting a big 5:30pm NBfOH showcase at Pentridge Station
TY for platforming this guest - going to reference the label questions within my Human Flourishing classes in the next two weeks. We've focused especially on sound at the core of a flourishing life, including music but also the ability to hear, the ability (and challenge in skill) to listen - and access to sound. Looking forward to sharing about Subvert and seeing what seniors in HS think.
TL;DR - this guy is pessimistic on the idea of a Rock band middle class in 2026.
One thing I have been pondering recently is how every local scene is really a dozen or more scenes that rarely overlap with one another based on rough genre fit. A twee band isn't going to open for a black metal band for instance. Couple that with venue reputation and preference - a lot of venues have specific genre limitations.
This nets out to fracturing that makes community feel smaller and isolated. Your community is your friends and the bands you get to know at your rehearsal space.
Add to this that fans listening habits and preferences are just as fractured and hyper specific.
There isn't enough local money to support all of the options on the menu, not enough fans to keep every genre afloat, and not enough venues willing to take a flier on untested bands. Also, who wants to pay 20 bucks to see a bunch of bands you have no knowledge of?
In addition, hiring a DJ to play music or a cover or tribute band that people can dance to is cheaper and generally pulls in more paying customers.
Oh yeah, and being in a rock band is expensive. Gear is expensive, learning to play well enough to have something interesting to say takes years, all that time you're paying out rent and bringing in a fraction of what you're paying out.
There really isn't a solution to this problem. The pie is too small, it costs too much, and people's preferences are too diverse. Plus there is a lot of other dessert on the menu.
The path for musicians to financial stability is selection. For some reason, the people have chosen you and you took advantage of the opportunity and ran hard with it. You've won the music lottery.
This model contributes to inaction, or more precisely, far too little action. All of what Carré speaks about is on the money. I also think her instinct to feature established artists with up and comers provides opportunity and is smart and tested. I also think it has to be sub genre level focused to work. It's a tactic that is unlikely to scale unless a ton of established artists are willing to lend a hand to the unestablished bands.
To sum up all my blathering, I am pessimistic on the idea of a rock band middle class in 2026 or in the future. I love that you are both doing something to improve the lives of musicians and working to raise the boats within your reach and I applaud and thank you both. You are two bright lights in a dark sky.
Im with you. I don’t think that’s pessimistic, I think that’s realistic. I totally agree that the only way the Sick model of collaboration between established and emerging is IF enough established artists are willing to pay it forward. And I have doubts that many actually will. Soon, im going to talk more about the struggle I’ve already had with getting established artists on board. I find that it’s especially difficult with rock artists. Which Gabbie and I talked about in our live chat. I’ve written a lot about how the rock genre has only stood in its own way and is to blame for its own demise. That’s a big reason why I don’t want Sick to be limited to rock artists.
And yes, rock band touring is pretty delusional for indie artists. I toured for many years with a 4 piece band behind me and now I can only afford to tour as a solo artist using drum machines and tracks. A lot of older rock fans and rock music snobs turn their noses up at this. But it’s an example of having to adapt and evolve with the times. I’ll be damned if I’m another sad man sitting at the rainbow room on sunset blvd talking about how “back in the day” I used to tour with X, Y and Z. So what. It’s time to focus on what equates to onwards and upwards. How do we survive NOW instead of how we did things THEN.
Okay but counterpoint: new colossus is an annual music festival where people pay $150 to see 200 bands they have never listened to before and it's really popular!
I do think you have a lot of good points I just think there's probably some hope to be had as well
Another bright light in a dark sky. But, it is a one time event and I doubt most of those bands did more than pay their rehearsal space rent from their efforts. Even if you could string together 25 NCs a year like an NC tour for those 200 bands that those bands are making much of a living from it. The math on tours doesn't match any more. The math on merch doesn't math. The math on vinyl doesn't math.
What's super weird in Tacoma, WA is that music venues generally don't pay musicians unless they bring in 200 plus people enough to cover their gas to get to the venue. Chinese restaurants, pizzerias, and other venues you wouldn't expect music in are paying much better. I think the whole model of venues relying on entertainment to draw crouds to by drinks and pay at the door for the privilege is fully broken here. If you don't already have a model that makes money before the artist shows up, you're kinda screwed.
We're happy in my main band just earning enough every month to cover our rehearsal space. It's taken us 6 years to get there, we had to start playing 1/3 covers and had to get gear that could fit both physically and sonically into venues without stages to do it. New music doesn't pay unless you're selected IMO.
I need to learn more about all of this stuff!!
One thing that would be super cool would be if you could interview some of the bands you cover when you go to their shows. Just impromptu, quick interviews focused on their view of this stuff and also a get to know the band kind of thing. I know you don't have tons of time to pull this off, and the ask is huge, but I think your perspective and position are super interesting for collecting music scene health type stuff and putting your fans in touch with the bands we collectively love.
It's not just that I don't have time, which I don't, it's also that I'm genuinely horrible at interviewing. It's a totally separate skill I never developed. People are also completely uninterested in any interviews I've done in the past, no matter the format I've presented them. This talk isn't an interview per se, but it vaguely follows that format, and you can see how well this post is doing lol
I have a lot of ruminating to do on Subvert because the part when Carré said "so many platforms" hit me like a wall of bricks because I'm a Subvert member who hasn't actually used it because, yes, too many platforms - but as i mull this over i gotta say, i'm ma'amifesting a big 5:30pm NBfOH showcase at Pentridge Station
that's right behind my house so I'm 100% all about this
TY for platforming this guest - going to reference the label questions within my Human Flourishing classes in the next two weeks. We've focused especially on sound at the core of a flourishing life, including music but also the ability to hear, the ability (and challenge in skill) to listen - and access to sound. Looking forward to sharing about Subvert and seeing what seniors in HS think.
Will also be curious to hear what they think!