A Mixtape for Your Oldest Brother, Justin McElroy
New Music DNA Pt. 4 - Justin McElroy of My Brother, My Brother and Me on having "uncool" music taste, chasing that fizzy feeling of recognition in new music, and the irrelevance of middle age.
Quick links for the TL;DR crowd:
1) My interview with Justin McElroy
2) Justin’s music DNA
3) A preview of Justin’s playlist
Full playlist and bonus video available here.
Justin McElroy is a podcaster, an author, and an entertainer.
“It took me many years to feel comfortable saying that,” he told me, “but I think at this point, it's all right. I entertain people for a living. That's my job.”
As a day-one fan of My Brother, My Brother and Me, I was delighted when Justin followed this newsletter’s TikTok precursor a few years back. And more delighted still when he agreed to talk with me about his music tastes and nostalgia.
In this fourth installment of New Music DNA, we discuss dorky music tastes, the idea that one could age out of listening to certain types of music, and constantly chasing familiar feelings when discovering new music.
And of course I make Justin a playlist, too.
The Pharaoh in His ‘90s Music Tomb: An Interview with Justin McElroy
Gabbie: What music are you most nostalgic for? Give me 5 of your favorite artists or bands that you had on constant repeat when you were in your teens and early 20s.
Justin: I think my top five in my youth would have been Ben Folds Five, Barenaked Ladies, Harvey Danger, Counting Crows and Dave Matthews Band. I did some college radio DJing in there too, so I have some alt rock stuff I play a lot, like Cake, the one album by Butterfly Joe, and Red Elvises. Special notice goes here to the album Sixteen Stone by Bush, which I had on a loop in high school.
Gabbie: What is your relationship with music generally? And what were your biggest influences in shaping your musical tastes over the years?
Justin: I started out thinking that I wasn’t really into music or like it wasn’t something that I really connected to. My earliest CD purchases were contemporary Christian artists and show tunes. I remember getting Bryan Adams, the song from the Robin Hood soundtrack, and a CD of music from the Disney parks.
Then, I was on a road trip with some friends going to Chicago, and they started playing a tape by a band called Moxy Früvous. We played it the whole way to Chicago and back, and one of my friends said, “if you like this, you would like They Might Be Giants.” I had never heard They Might Be Giants, except for the two Tiny Toons episodes that had randomly featured their songs.
When I started listening to Flood, I realized just how much music I had missed out on. I listened to Weird Al before that, because I wasn't allowed to listen to a lot of music. So, bands like Aerosmith, Stone Temple Pilots — anybody that had a parental advisory sticker, pretty much — was outside of my purview.
Gabbie: So no Tipper Gore’s Greatest Hits.
Justin: No, no 2 Live Crew at my house. I wasn't allowed to watch MTV for crying out loud! I got this CD and it completely opened my eyes to music that I could really feel passionate about. There was a sense of humor to it. It was music that was abstract and just reflected the absurdity of the world, and I felt like I could really connect to it.
“I feel like it's inappropriate for me to be listening to new music and I should just be like a pharaoh buried with my Collective Soul CDs in my tomb.”
Gabbie: That's a big experience for so many of us – that one band that explodes out into discovering everything else. How did your music taste develop from there as you grew up and became your own person?
Justin: As I got into college I started to seek out music that was more enjoyable to share with other people; things that I thought other people would like.
I also started to become more aware of how uncool my musical taste was. I was realizing that I had gone from feeling like my tastes were a little bit more erudite than my classmates’ to finding out that – no, I'm actually a dork. That was quite a wake up call.
Gabbie: Did that realization bother you?
Justin: I wouldn’t say it bothered me, but it didn't exactly foster in me a love of discovering or sharing music, either. I think at that point I decided that it was something that I would keep to myself. It became a very personal thing.
Gabbie: Music discovery was a private endeavor, then?
Justin: Yeah, certainly at that time. I didn't like a lot of what people were listening to. There wasn't much of a scene for me to gravitate towards or be involved with.
I also think that I had grown up not really feeling like I had cool taste, whatever that means, so not necessarily feeling the urge to share that with other people.
I'm discovering this as we talk – I don't have much of a vocabulary for discussing music in the way that I do for movies or TV or games. It's so much harder for me to explain what I like, and feel like that's worth anything, or like that insight is even worth sharing. I don't intrinsically feel that with music.
Gabbie: Do you feel like you were gatekept out of talking about music? Or did you impose these rules on yourself?
Justin: I think that by the time I started having more diverse musical tastes, I decided that I was too old for what I think about music to be worth sharing with people. I remember a time when I decided in my head that my dad's music tastes weren't cool. Then when I became a parent myself, I assumed that what I thought about music wouldn't be that interesting for anybody else to hear, either. At my age, it feels inappropriate for me to be listening to new music and I should just be like a pharaoh buried with my Collective Soul CDs in my tomb.
It's also very personal, isn't it? It's a lot more personal than talking about your favorite movies or TV shows or anything else. It feels very revealing, I think. Even answering the questions you sent over, I felt nervous. And why would you judge me? It makes no sense at all, but I still felt very vulnerable.
Gabbie: Well, that's part of the joy of this. And that's part of why I love to deliver the actual musical results of these interviews, in hopes that it will be help you feel more comfortable in your musical identity, in a way.
Justin: It's not as bad as I paint it. I think there is some aspect of this where I think — if I invest the time into learning about music, then what do I do with that knowledge? Because a lot of times you learn about an artist and no one else around you has heard of them.
“It's also very personal, isn't it? It's a lot more personal than talking about your favorite movies or TV shows or anything else.”
I have conversations with a lot of other adults about movies and television. If I invest the time into watching a movie or a TV show, then I've bought the currency of being more socially valuable. But that's harder with music. If you mention an artist that people haven't heard before, that’s so hard to contextualize — you can't reference an actor that’s in it. It’s a great conversation ender. I don't know, that's probably a limited vocabulary on my part.
Gabbie: That makes me wonder – what is the purpose of listening to music in that case, especially new music? Is it just for social capital? Because I don't think that's accurate.
Justin: No, not at all. But I think for me, it is more for utility at this point. I listen to music when I need to feel a different way, or to get myself excited for doing something. I listen to music when I'm in a good mood and want to elevate that. It’s often an undercurrent to doing other things, like mood setting for cooking or working.
But I also like music that has a story, that has a sense of drama. I'm still very, very into that. A lot of times it's just the fun of pretending to perform in the car or the shower or whatever. I like that. That's fun to do.
Gabbie: One thing you told me when I first pitched this mixtape idea to you is that you’re chasing that “fizzy feeling” of hearing a song that you feel like you've heard before. What's the a song that gave you that feeling most recently?
Justin: “Virginia” by Boys Go to Jupiter is one of the best I've heard in a really long time.
The most recent one though is from a brand new album by Maverick Mom called called “Aoku, Haru.” I think it translates to “blue spring.” It’s fantastic.
There's a bridge in this song that breaks into hand claps that I think anybody on the planet is going to be excited to hear.
I also like music that’s symphonic. I like grandeur and scope. I'm a sucker for that.
Gabbie: You're an entertainer, and I think you want to be entertained in kind.
Justin: I think I also realized in talking to you that there’s music I don't feel comfortable liking because it seems inauthentic to who I am as a person. That’s something I struggle with a lot. Sometimes I don't even feel comfortable saying I like an artist because it seems inappropriate for me.
The perfect example is “22” by Taylor Swift. You go to karaoke. People are singing the song. The chorus is, “I don't know about you, but I'm feeling 22.” It's jubilant. It's uplifting. You see a 28-year-old woman sing that song and you get it. You think, “Absolutely, my friend. I, too, am feeling 22.” But you see a 44-year-old man up there, and everyone in the audience is like, “I don't think you are feeling 22, man.”
There is certainly an age at which I feel like it starts to be weird for me to listen to some music. Or like I’m a poseur by saying I like something, you know?
Gabbie: How do you feel about older musicians making new music?
Justin: I wish they wouldn't.
Gabbie: You wish they would fucking stop.
Justin: I wish they would stop. I'm just too practical about it. There's a lot of bands where I feel like they've made so many albums, that they’ve pushed this experiment as far as it could go. I don't necessarily need more of it, but that's thinking of music as a product rather than an expression of music.
Gabbie: Well Justin, this has been unbelievably discouraging.
Justin: Good.
Gabbie: Just imagine how hard it is for me. You don't think that you have a place to discuss music. You don’t want to listen to music made for youths. But you also don’t want older musicians making music. I have nothing to give you!
Justin: And you didn't even bring up the Cherry Poppin’ Daddies!
Justin’s Music DNA
When I asked Justin if he had any guilty pleasures, he gave me a genuine and emphatic no. “But I feel guilty that I don’t like more stuff.”
Even so, I decided that with this mixtape, I’m going to try to help him embrace the kind of sound he’s already drawn to instead of pulling him out of his comfort zone.
Justin told me that his main goal for this mix is for me to recapture that fizzy feeling we talked about. He wants songs that feel “like they’ve been in your bones all these years and are just now shaking out.”
I wish I could make a playlist that bestowed the listener with the assurance that their opinions about music are relevant and welcome. Familiar and comforting songs, though, I can probably do.
For Justin, that means:
theatrical songs
songs with great pop construction (even those that aren’t explicitly pop songs)
songs with strong melody
a healthy dose of nerdery, earnestness, optimism, and fun (in equal measure); and
if we’re going darker, at least make it RIP.
A Sneak Peek of Justin’s Playlist
Justin already has his full playlist. You can get the whole thing right here (plus our whole interview on video!) Below are the highlights.
1. Haute & Freddy - “Shy Girl”
Justin loves solid pop construction, plus a flair for the theatrical and dramatic. It doesn’t get much more over the top that Haute & Freddy, a duo who used to write hits for much bigger pop stars and now nerd out with their own brand of self-styled “carnival pop.” Think ‘80s Baroque/synthpop dialed up to every extreme.
2. Cheekface - “Living Lo-Fi”
I feel like I’m cheating when I recommend Cheekface to They Might Be Giants and Barenaked Ladies fans. No music vocabulary needed to hear the geek rock lineage here.
3. Teenage Wrist - “Digital Self”
When I think of new bands that embody the ‘90s post-grunge sound of Collective Soul or Bush, I immediately think of Teenage Wrist.
4. Alex Orange Drink - “The Future’s A Riot”
Trying to find new music that approximates early Ben Folds’ particular blend of nerdy optimism and piano-forward earnestness has not been an easy feat. Here’s my best offering (Conor Oberst approved!)
5. The Snuts - “NPC”
This is a mix for Justin McElroy — I can’t help myself to the tiniest little video game reference, as a treat. The Snuts sound like an electric rainbow exploded, so I’m really hoping this is the perfect contender for his Feelgood? No. FeelGREAT. playlist.
Food for thought:
If you ever felt like you had “uncool” music taste, what are you listening to now?
Is music discovery personal for you, or a community activity?
Do you think it’s necessary to be well versed in any music-related topic in order for your opinion on it to be worth sharing?
This was really interesting because I feel like so many people liked “literary” or funny, whimsical bands in their teens (TMBG, Barenaked Ladies, Ben Folds Five) but I wonder if there are modern-day equivalents of those bands
Totally enjoyed this, thanks Gabbie.
I think the part about not having a musical “vocabulary” that is strong enough to make talking about new music as interesting as talking about TV or movies hit me.
It seems that many adults (in my life) are more willing to dip into a 30 min TV show than try a new album/artist so I find sometimes I have to hold people captive in some way to get them to listen in real time. Sometimes it works and sometimes I feel like I’ve killed the vibe if we’re hanging out and I switch into, “OMG you have to hear this song” mode. On the other hand I do have a small crew of friends who will accompany me to shows for artists they have never listened to. I find that blind trust heartwarming.
I think I also appreciated the piece because my tastes are not the same as Justin’s and it was fun to preview the mix tape tracks and find the ven-diagram where our tastes do overlap. Thanks again!