The older I get the more I want my music to be fun. I’d much rather that than a bunch of dudes being all, “Pain… think about it, yeah?”
I love this piece. I know it’s not the point you were making but I do find myself critiquing music by just asking, “Does it have a good beat and can I dance to it?”
It's gotta be hard for some of these self-deigned gatekeepers to see how irrelevant they've become. I lot of the screenshots you posted read like death rattles.
As for Wet leg? I said it earlier; their first record was great. Haven't listened to this one yet, but I assume it'll be good too. And if not, so be it. Doesn't mean someone else won't fall in love with it.
Thank you! I agree with all of this. I want to say something insightful but the double standards at play here make me too furious to think coherently! This is a great piece. The tone is light-hearted enough that I really enjoyed reading it (I particularly like your diagram - not sure if it was intended to be humorous but it definitely made me smile), but it also gets to the core of something really distasteful about the music industry generally. I get sick to death of the energy women in music have to expend simply justifying their existence. You’ve hit it on the head with fun and sexy being a catalyst for derision. Pretty sad really!
First of all, I'll say this - I agree wholeheartedly, and it is infuriating...
I'll add this:
1. It's not the music that has to be fun, it's any woman(women) who have any level of breakthrough success and appear to be having any fun. I give you Pheobe Bridgers and Lucy Dacus as prime examples. Sad, dark music, but they're having a good time. Having sex! (OMG, and talking about it). I think Julien gets less flack because she's quieter and less obviously HAPPY.
2. I recently heard Frankie Cosmos called out as a nepo baby. Her parents are Kevin Kline and Pheobe Cates. Hardly big, powerful names with huge connections in the music industry. Just wealthy, formerly well known actors. No man would get called out for that.
3. The derision in the indie world for women, all women even if they are not successful is insane, and mostly from men who truly believe they are the open minded, liberal, good guys. General comments of the - "oh, another female fronted indie band" are hardly unusual. As if, females need to be super unique to be worth a listen, and please stop taking up space where men could/should be.
4. Whenever the topic of the real experiences of women in the music industry comes up, men get so damn defensive. As if it's their right to groom, or rape young women. Even the way soundmen treat the women they are working for is insulting. These kind of comments about the reality of the industry make a lot of men angry. As if it's an attack against their manhood, not a call for making things better.
5. I personally think the new Wet Leg is great, but even if I didn't I would defend them. I find myself defending Taylor Swift often, though I'm not a fan, because whether I enjoy your music or not, you don't deserve derision for being female and existing in the music industry.
i probably should have made a greater point to say that no women get out fully unscathed. i do think that the boygenius crew (i kind of threw PB in the graph as a placeholder for all, unfairly) comes out a touch a head of wet leg/LDP/et al. because they are less "fun," though. they get that tortured poet's pass, even if it's not a FULL pass, and of course it never will be. that level of seriousness in their music gets them taken more seriously by more people, though they absolutely have to work so much harder for it than any man would. but we're in agreement obviously. the more fun, the less acceptable.
i also defend taylor swift even though i don't care for her music much. (fwiw, i would have put her smack dab in the middle with HAIM, despite how i named my quadrants). i'm a girl's girl. she could do more to uplift women of color, and to fight The Machine that is ticketmaster, but her music? why is that even coming into question? (rhetorical -- we know why.)
To point 3, yes! I once had an argument with a stranger at a concert who didn’t rate the support because “the market for female-fronted indie bands is saturated.” He backtracked with haste! That people don’t hear the absurdity of what comes out of their mouths astonishes me!
I really had no idea Wet Leg was getting so much hate - one of the perks I guess of spending most of my time in my own bubble. But I think you hit the nail on the head with this stack! The misogyny in the comments you shared- 🤮. If you don’t like the music, move on!
Really feels like unless women in music follow the exact blueprints laid out for them- either by the industry or by listeners through our own somewhat unconscious bias/expectations- they get hate. God forbid any of them forge their own path! And people are giving them shit for changing their personal style?! Fuck that! We all evolve as humans.
Also just gonna say at 41, the lyrics to “Catch these fists” resonate just as much to me today as they would have if the song came out 20 years ago. The only difference now is I have old men telling me I’m their type instead. Some things will never change! Sorry your feelings are hurt, boys! Maybe you should go touch some grass? (Definitely been reading too much feminist context as of late!)
we're the same age... i gotta say it's crazy that men aren't done commenting on our appearance. i was promised invisibility.
in any case, yes, it's easy enough to avoid this type of behavior if you disconnect, and it's good to do that for your own mental health. but also important to stay vigilant.
Spot on though about women never being allowed to succeed on their own merits. Courtney Love and Hole were never allowed to be a good rock band either. She was riding Kurt's coattails (or something else, ahem) to stardom, we'll allow that "Celebrity Skin" rocked but it will also be reduced to "that song movie trailers use to show the heroine is a Strong Female Protagonist," etc.
And a P.S. I forgot to include about the old gatekeepers. Listen, public radio station I love and support. I know the demographic of your biggest donor group. But for the love of little green apples, do we really need an evening commute hour of all seventies music in our year of 2025?
ha glad you liked that. i was thinking Taylor Swift might also go there but like...I named the left quadrant after her so that doesn't seem fair! I'm so interested in where to place literally every other band in existence lol
I get it, but I like Highs In The 70s (and I would maybe argue that 5-6 is more the commute hour). I am more likely to find something older that I didn't know from that station than something new, but that is just me.
Thank you for this! I stand behind any defense of Wet Leg and would also mention that Rhian Teasdale was recording Sofar sessions like ten years ago...that's a long game for an "industry plant."
one thing that drives me nuts is one of the biggest criticisms against her is that "she can't sing." again, tastes are what they are and she can be not to your liking, but she can, in fact, sing. demonstrably. and even if she couldn't, when has that been a requirement to sing rock?
Just wanna add, as someone who was called an industry plant until the band hit about 18— even when those dudes/critics decide you’re “legit”, they will then just use you as some new standard by which younger women in any alt-adjacent genre should be judged against.
You bring up extremely interesting points. And yes, referencing the perpetually present male gaze in all things opinion-related, we may never get past the gates that stand in preserving and protecting that most male zone of all, the rock hero. At least, easily. Androgeny is a fascinating place where sexes and mores are mixed, creating a fascinating distortion field that both repels and lures. I think it confuses the hell out of men, but not women, interestingly. But it may be that one of the only ways, at least for now, that women can break in (what a strange phrase, like we're robbers, stealing something that doesn't belong to us) to the business, might be to mix those messages - appealing, titillating, and/or scaring the shit out of both men and some women, in order to be seen. Possibly only then can a woman turn around and reveal herself as she is.
In my business life I've had to walk that extremely narrow line while dealing with men in vastly outnumbered fields- science and technology. I learned how to get heard, which was to become a female version of a man. I didn't like it, but I got good at it. And now I see it as a very effective tool when dealing with people who dismiss me out of hand.
You mentioned that some of these issues dissolve once one gets older, and this is true. But you also, if you're unlucky, trade that invisibility of non-seriousness for the true invisibility of being old. And there's no returning from that unless you become very unapologetic indeed about you mean to accomplish.
thank "god" for gabbie. for decades i've been trying to explain the impossible, no-win position women in music are put in. we're too hot, we're too sexy, we're not hot enough, we're not sexy enough, we're hot but we suck, we're good but we're not hot, we're too old to matter, we're too young to be significant, etc. etc. etc. i have no idea what it's like to be fun or make fun music but i'm sure that just adds an extra big target on a girl's back. thanks for articulating my inner dialogue so well.
You nailed it with this. There’s so much to say about point number three. Pop artists often get dismissed entirely as being serious, per your diagram (which I love), as if their music appears from the ether and doesn’t take as much labor as any other music that’s put out there. And I would say there’s a hierarchy with your quadrants, with sexy/fun relegated to the bottom tier, often dubbed as “guilty pleasure” music to admit to enjoying it at all. It enrages me.
As an aside, I’m finalizing a playlist with a lot of music that falls in that quadrant (Wet Leg is in there), that is all female and non-binary artists. I’ve been deliberating a lot over how to “sell it” without losing people who will think it’s junk music, but I’m prepared to take the hit.
It’s misogyny writ large as you so eloquently stated. While it’s not always men that make these ridiculous complaints, it’s weighted heavily in that direction. A fun + sexy female artist that so openly displays their agency is unfortunately still anathema to the vast majority of men.
While I didn’t love the first album (really enjoyed some of the tracks) I did love how fun it was. I’m really enjoying the new album though and appreciate the evolution.
i love how the new record has evolved since the first. i myself was a bit worried after the first that they might be flash in the pan. it's great to be proven wrong.
Thank you for this. I almost got fooled myself (sometimes I just reflexively resist hype, but I am horrified to realize the misogyny layered into it all), but gave it a listen and turned around. I’ll be on the chaise for the rest of the summer enjoying it.
I’m flabbergasted by the hate against this band. I truly had no idea. I listened to Moisturizer based on your recommendation and I was like “yeah this rules.” CPR is a really exciting single. I put it on a playlist immediately. I’m glad you name checked the Harry Styles cover and The Last Dinner Party (also put their songs on a few playlists last year). I dunno, it’s good shit?
i was going to throw in a small section about how this hatred definitely comes from a certain social media cesspool (tik tok, reddit, etc.) and that there are healthier places (youtube, substack mostly) where you can ignore it. but i think it's good to know that this negativity exists even if you continue avoiding it yourself, because we live in a society and all that, with all its implications. and yeah, it is good shit! enjoy it!
The older I get the more I want my music to be fun. I’d much rather that than a bunch of dudes being all, “Pain… think about it, yeah?”
I love this piece. I know it’s not the point you were making but I do find myself critiquing music by just asking, “Does it have a good beat and can I dance to it?”
if you're not having fun, what's the point? to have more pain and suffering in your life?
It's gotta be hard for some of these self-deigned gatekeepers to see how irrelevant they've become. I lot of the screenshots you posted read like death rattles.
As for Wet leg? I said it earlier; their first record was great. Haven't listened to this one yet, but I assume it'll be good too. And if not, so be it. Doesn't mean someone else won't fall in love with it.
they are truly embarrassing themselves
Thank you! I agree with all of this. I want to say something insightful but the double standards at play here make me too furious to think coherently! This is a great piece. The tone is light-hearted enough that I really enjoyed reading it (I particularly like your diagram - not sure if it was intended to be humorous but it definitely made me smile), but it also gets to the core of something really distasteful about the music industry generally. I get sick to death of the energy women in music have to expend simply justifying their existence. You’ve hit it on the head with fun and sexy being a catalyst for derision. Pretty sad really!
everything i write is intended to be humorous even when i'm deservedly angry, so don't worry!
First of all, I'll say this - I agree wholeheartedly, and it is infuriating...
I'll add this:
1. It's not the music that has to be fun, it's any woman(women) who have any level of breakthrough success and appear to be having any fun. I give you Pheobe Bridgers and Lucy Dacus as prime examples. Sad, dark music, but they're having a good time. Having sex! (OMG, and talking about it). I think Julien gets less flack because she's quieter and less obviously HAPPY.
2. I recently heard Frankie Cosmos called out as a nepo baby. Her parents are Kevin Kline and Pheobe Cates. Hardly big, powerful names with huge connections in the music industry. Just wealthy, formerly well known actors. No man would get called out for that.
3. The derision in the indie world for women, all women even if they are not successful is insane, and mostly from men who truly believe they are the open minded, liberal, good guys. General comments of the - "oh, another female fronted indie band" are hardly unusual. As if, females need to be super unique to be worth a listen, and please stop taking up space where men could/should be.
4. Whenever the topic of the real experiences of women in the music industry comes up, men get so damn defensive. As if it's their right to groom, or rape young women. Even the way soundmen treat the women they are working for is insulting. These kind of comments about the reality of the industry make a lot of men angry. As if it's an attack against their manhood, not a call for making things better.
5. I personally think the new Wet Leg is great, but even if I didn't I would defend them. I find myself defending Taylor Swift often, though I'm not a fan, because whether I enjoy your music or not, you don't deserve derision for being female and existing in the music industry.
Ok, I'll stop ranting now.
i probably should have made a greater point to say that no women get out fully unscathed. i do think that the boygenius crew (i kind of threw PB in the graph as a placeholder for all, unfairly) comes out a touch a head of wet leg/LDP/et al. because they are less "fun," though. they get that tortured poet's pass, even if it's not a FULL pass, and of course it never will be. that level of seriousness in their music gets them taken more seriously by more people, though they absolutely have to work so much harder for it than any man would. but we're in agreement obviously. the more fun, the less acceptable.
i also defend taylor swift even though i don't care for her music much. (fwiw, i would have put her smack dab in the middle with HAIM, despite how i named my quadrants). i'm a girl's girl. she could do more to uplift women of color, and to fight The Machine that is ticketmaster, but her music? why is that even coming into question? (rhetorical -- we know why.)
To point 3, yes! I once had an argument with a stranger at a concert who didn’t rate the support because “the market for female-fronted indie bands is saturated.” He backtracked with haste! That people don’t hear the absurdity of what comes out of their mouths astonishes me!
CATCH THESE FISTS
Haha! Exactly!
I really had no idea Wet Leg was getting so much hate - one of the perks I guess of spending most of my time in my own bubble. But I think you hit the nail on the head with this stack! The misogyny in the comments you shared- 🤮. If you don’t like the music, move on!
Really feels like unless women in music follow the exact blueprints laid out for them- either by the industry or by listeners through our own somewhat unconscious bias/expectations- they get hate. God forbid any of them forge their own path! And people are giving them shit for changing their personal style?! Fuck that! We all evolve as humans.
Also just gonna say at 41, the lyrics to “Catch these fists” resonate just as much to me today as they would have if the song came out 20 years ago. The only difference now is I have old men telling me I’m their type instead. Some things will never change! Sorry your feelings are hurt, boys! Maybe you should go touch some grass? (Definitely been reading too much feminist context as of late!)
we're the same age... i gotta say it's crazy that men aren't done commenting on our appearance. i was promised invisibility.
in any case, yes, it's easy enough to avoid this type of behavior if you disconnect, and it's good to do that for your own mental health. but also important to stay vigilant.
Your putting HAIM dead center gave me a laugh.
Spot on though about women never being allowed to succeed on their own merits. Courtney Love and Hole were never allowed to be a good rock band either. She was riding Kurt's coattails (or something else, ahem) to stardom, we'll allow that "Celebrity Skin" rocked but it will also be reduced to "that song movie trailers use to show the heroine is a Strong Female Protagonist," etc.
And a P.S. I forgot to include about the old gatekeepers. Listen, public radio station I love and support. I know the demographic of your biggest donor group. But for the love of little green apples, do we really need an evening commute hour of all seventies music in our year of 2025?
ha glad you liked that. i was thinking Taylor Swift might also go there but like...I named the left quadrant after her so that doesn't seem fair! I'm so interested in where to place literally every other band in existence lol
I get it, but I like Highs In The 70s (and I would maybe argue that 5-6 is more the commute hour). I am more likely to find something older that I didn't know from that station than something new, but that is just me.
Clearly we're in the same part of the country. :)
…and while they’re at it, can they give the Blues Show its last two hours back?!
Thank you for this! I stand behind any defense of Wet Leg and would also mention that Rhian Teasdale was recording Sofar sessions like ten years ago...that's a long game for an "industry plant."
one thing that drives me nuts is one of the biggest criticisms against her is that "she can't sing." again, tastes are what they are and she can be not to your liking, but she can, in fact, sing. demonstrably. and even if she couldn't, when has that been a requirement to sing rock?
Love this piece, Wet Leg is awesome.
thanks patrick. they are in fact awesome.
Subscribed!!!!!! Wet Leg rule.
Just wanna add, as someone who was called an industry plant until the band hit about 18— even when those dudes/critics decide you’re “legit”, they will then just use you as some new standard by which younger women in any alt-adjacent genre should be judged against.
And it does not feel any better.
Love your writing. Excited to read more.
there is never any winning ever EVER. and thank you so much for the compliment, I'm very happy to have you here
You bring up extremely interesting points. And yes, referencing the perpetually present male gaze in all things opinion-related, we may never get past the gates that stand in preserving and protecting that most male zone of all, the rock hero. At least, easily. Androgeny is a fascinating place where sexes and mores are mixed, creating a fascinating distortion field that both repels and lures. I think it confuses the hell out of men, but not women, interestingly. But it may be that one of the only ways, at least for now, that women can break in (what a strange phrase, like we're robbers, stealing something that doesn't belong to us) to the business, might be to mix those messages - appealing, titillating, and/or scaring the shit out of both men and some women, in order to be seen. Possibly only then can a woman turn around and reveal herself as she is.
In my business life I've had to walk that extremely narrow line while dealing with men in vastly outnumbered fields- science and technology. I learned how to get heard, which was to become a female version of a man. I didn't like it, but I got good at it. And now I see it as a very effective tool when dealing with people who dismiss me out of hand.
You mentioned that some of these issues dissolve once one gets older, and this is true. But you also, if you're unlucky, trade that invisibility of non-seriousness for the true invisibility of being old. And there's no returning from that unless you become very unapologetic indeed about you mean to accomplish.
this is beautifully said. robbers, indeed!! i alluded to that trade-off about age... there really just isn't any winning
Thank you :) Yeah, maybe the only way to win is not to play the game. Their game. Make a new one. Easier said than done, I know, but still...
After all, women comprise 52% of the world's population. It's a slim edge, but it IS an edge.
thank "god" for gabbie. for decades i've been trying to explain the impossible, no-win position women in music are put in. we're too hot, we're too sexy, we're not hot enough, we're not sexy enough, we're hot but we suck, we're good but we're not hot, we're too old to matter, we're too young to be significant, etc. etc. etc. i have no idea what it's like to be fun or make fun music but i'm sure that just adds an extra big target on a girl's back. thanks for articulating my inner dialogue so well.
Carré ❤️❤️❤️
You nailed it with this. There’s so much to say about point number three. Pop artists often get dismissed entirely as being serious, per your diagram (which I love), as if their music appears from the ether and doesn’t take as much labor as any other music that’s put out there. And I would say there’s a hierarchy with your quadrants, with sexy/fun relegated to the bottom tier, often dubbed as “guilty pleasure” music to admit to enjoying it at all. It enrages me.
As an aside, I’m finalizing a playlist with a lot of music that falls in that quadrant (Wet Leg is in there), that is all female and non-binary artists. I’ve been deliberating a lot over how to “sell it” without losing people who will think it’s junk music, but I’m prepared to take the hit.
i was so worried about posting this... hence all the hedging and over explaining. so far so good. just go for it. I'll hype you!
I’m glad you did. It’s well-articulated and is clearly resonating with a lot of other people who are tired of this bullshit.
It’s misogyny writ large as you so eloquently stated. While it’s not always men that make these ridiculous complaints, it’s weighted heavily in that direction. A fun + sexy female artist that so openly displays their agency is unfortunately still anathema to the vast majority of men.
While I didn’t love the first album (really enjoyed some of the tracks) I did love how fun it was. I’m really enjoying the new album though and appreciate the evolution.
i love how the new record has evolved since the first. i myself was a bit worried after the first that they might be flash in the pan. it's great to be proven wrong.
Thank you for this. I almost got fooled myself (sometimes I just reflexively resist hype, but I am horrified to realize the misogyny layered into it all), but gave it a listen and turned around. I’ll be on the chaise for the rest of the summer enjoying it.
a lot of us reflexively resist hype. those of us who care about music, though, get past it.
I’m flabbergasted by the hate against this band. I truly had no idea. I listened to Moisturizer based on your recommendation and I was like “yeah this rules.” CPR is a really exciting single. I put it on a playlist immediately. I’m glad you name checked the Harry Styles cover and The Last Dinner Party (also put their songs on a few playlists last year). I dunno, it’s good shit?
i was going to throw in a small section about how this hatred definitely comes from a certain social media cesspool (tik tok, reddit, etc.) and that there are healthier places (youtube, substack mostly) where you can ignore it. but i think it's good to know that this negativity exists even if you continue avoiding it yourself, because we live in a society and all that, with all its implications. and yeah, it is good shit! enjoy it!
Hereby petitioning for more music matrices!
That was my favorite part of NY magazine in the 00s
i could make a whole post of them tbh